The Creature List

2007-01-19 [xido]:

2007-01-19 [Angel Dreamer]: Are you ready for new creatures? Someone just sent me the samodiva, but I wouldn't want to throw you off.

2007-01-20 [xido]: Feel free to throw away at any time. You will not mess me up - I am ready for anything. ;) Thanks for the comment on it, though. The more we can communicate it out, the better, I think.

2007-01-20 [xido]: I think I have an idea: what if we feature the rules for adding on your page (like a welcome page for viewers), and the full list on here, and I can make the links work all together to use the info posted on this page, and free up a little room here too. ;)

More to come....

2007-01-20 [iippo]: The simplest solution would be to use one word as the wiki's name ("creatures" or somesuch), while you could still use the banners that have "the Creature List" on them.

2007-01-20 [xido]: I THINK I know what you are saying, but could you give an example, for it to be clear?

Also, it is always an irritant for me to see a banner that does not use the actual name of the wiki in it.... This is most likely Obsessive-Compulsive, but with our current (and wonderful) banner, I would like to make it an integral word-use visual key for viewers. Using both pages (C_L for rules/details and info; TCL for the full list; linked with [wiki#tags]) would be helpful, and make both pages shorter in length, while still having the working banner title on at least one of the pages....
-will

2007-01-20 [iippo]: There are many wikis that are called "Something Very Long and Complicated", but the actual name of the page they use is "SVLAC" -- using an easy-to-remember word like "creatures" as the page while sticking to the descriptive name of "The Creature List" would work the same if not better (Hedda's always telling people to use easy to remember yet descriptive wikipage names).

The only time it irks me is when people have a wiki banner in their house that doesn't have the correct wikiname in it, especially if they have forgotten to link to the wiki itself.

2007-01-21 [Angel Dreamer]: samodiva added. I like the idea of a welcome page for the exported link (if that's what you're saying), especially since the url is easier to remember and type. A third move to a new page simply to make the name easier doesn't sound very appealing.

2007-01-21 [Angel Dreamer]: Oh, and xido: I haven't figured out how to do the keywords and such for the searches, so the samodiva kinda lacks those...

2007-01-22 [xido]: Alright, iippo, thanks for the input. I see what you mean. I agree with the OCD on the banner with the incorrect name. That would be my biggest grief with using another new name for the page.

To Angel: I agree, and I think you will like the final result of the pages. When it is completed, the current C_L will be for rules, info, and a A-Z links, and this page will house the full list of creatures, which will be where the viewer is sent after clicking on the letter-links. On this page, a full list of creatures will be long, and on the other, we can use it for rules instead of taking up space for them here. ;) I think you will enjoy it.

Keywords are simply words that relate to the CL and Creature Pages. See Creature List Format for keywords, and make sure they are separated by a space, with each Creature Page also getting the name of the creature (or wikipage name, if different). More to come. ;)

2007-01-22 [xido]: All A-B Creature Pages have been checked and formatted. The first three 'A' Creatures also have appropriate keywords:

the creatures list creature_list fantasy monsters beasties critters of mythology legendary fiction Elftown's wiki "Name of Creature" "Where from/what kind"

Make sense?
-will

2007-01-22 [Angel Dreamer]: lampade and cucuio added. 

2007-01-22 [Linn Scarlett]: so, what are the jobs and hand? how does the color system work? any uniformication etc?

2007-01-22 [Angel Dreamer]: alicanto, ercinee added

2007-01-23 [xido]: To Linn: The color system? You mean the color bullets?
See Creature List Format for those bullets, and what they mean. That will be posted here too.

I'm not sure what you mean with 'jobs and hand'.... Check with Angel to see what you can specifically do to help her. If you would like to format Creature Pages, add keywords (as listed), add "Back to Creature_List / The Creature List" and check which pages have content and how much (only Pegasus has been featured on the Elftown Creature Marathon - purple bullet).

2007-01-23 [xido]: Keywords:
the creatures list creature_list fantasy monsters beasties critters of mythology legendary fiction Elftown's wiki
Also:
"Name" "Myth/Type/Author" (examples:)
pheonix Greek
aeon Gnostic Final Fantasy Qabala
illithid D&D
hobbit Tolkien
halfling D&D
Wraeththu Storm Contantine
(anarch) Anarchic D&D Outside the Realms of Existence Extraplanar Planes
etc.

Other Myths include:
Greek
Roman
Latin
Gnostic
Judeo-Christian
Hindu
Oriental
Arabic
Atlantis/Atlantean
etc.

Keywords for aboleth to anarch DONE

2007-01-23 [Linn Scarlett]: What I also wanted to ask: what is the differance between 'minor to average' and 'major to average' content?

2007-01-24 [Angel Dreamer]: bane has now been graciously released to our medding ^_^

2007-01-24 [Suzu]: i may have to watch this wiki now as repayment :)

2007-01-26 [xido]: Angel, I am going to switch the graphics back to code, so that they can be copied from the page without editing, in case we need to later. The colored bullet will still appear on top, but we want to show the tag for it too, just in case.

To Linn:
A simple 1-2 sentence statement about what a creature is, or a simple bit of info without a reference is the smallest form of content (Description - Minor). That excludes no content (like bane, which was edited to show this).

A post with anything more than 2-3 paragraphs and/or a reference to a resource used for the info would be an average-to-major post. Anything featured on the ECM immediately gets that bullet, instead of the others. Only Pegasus has been featured so far. Werecreature is a good idea of an average-to-major content page.
-will

2007-01-26 [xido]: Another quick tip:
Any of the types of 'Sidhe' (pronounced "shee"), a type of faerie race, should be cut and posted after Sidhe, as a subtype, and perhaps listed on that page as different races. Sidhe are typically neutral or good-aligned fae races, where Unsidhe are more often more chaotic or evil-aligned. But that is D&D (Wizards) / Changeling (White Wolf) info...
-will

2007-01-26 [xido]: dragon is more informative than dragon description, and contains the latter information after it was moved there by yours truly. Hedda suggested it, so it was done. ;)

2007-01-28 [xido]: Gnoll added for later content inclusion.

2007-01-28 [Linn Scarlett]: also, xido, i mean to dig out the gold and muck of elvenkind <---meaning that I plan to create extended pages for the different kinds of elves, linked from the Elves page. If you are ok with it ofcourse. I lately bought the Kinslayerwars, aswell as Realms of the Elves and Elves of Fearun, so yeah XD I need to read those and then I can set myself lose if it's ok with you

2007-01-30 [Linn Scarlett]: Nwah I was just confused by the 'minor/average' 'average/minor' as that kind of puts average in two places XD I'll get started on it tomorrow *flexes hands* then my finals are over -for now

2007-02-03 [xido]: As for the 'average', it is:  2-3 paragraphs with one reference, and gets a 'minor bullet (non-ECM). It would also get a 'minor bullet' if it had any thing less (like a one-liner 'Description'), or say like one small paragraph and a single pic.

3-4 paragraphs, 2-3 paragraphs with a pic, 2-3 paragraphs and a few references, or multiple pics constitutes a 'Moderate-to-Major Content (non-ECM) bullet.'

More sensible? :D
-will

2007-02-03 [Angel Dreamer]: Stilken is now added.

2007-02-04 [xido]: And are all of those pages now formatted with:
<h1>Title</h1>

<centered> img

Body of Content
- Reference

Back to the [Creature_List@wiki] / [The Creature List@wiki]

???

The last thing we need to do is make sure that all pages can be commented on by net viewers (but not edited by them - Elftown members ONLY should contribute), add adequate keywords to each page (copy-paste keywords from Creature List Format, and add the creature's name(s) and where it is from - culture/story/media).

Then, when that is all finished for each page (Angel should be the owner of all pages), and they are all formatted, we will take the other list away (from Creature_List, and leave the links up for it to here.

2007-02-04 [Angel Dreamer]: Yeah, I've been adding author's names where I could along with the other keywords. 

2007-02-05 [xido]: Great! And we are so close to being finished! Great job to you both, and I can't wait to see what kind of ripples this will make in Elftown's fantasy-loving populace... ;)

When all the bullets are up, I will take the other list off Creature_List, and this one will be our full and final list to work with... Plus, it will be easier to moderate in many ways.

2007-02-08 [xido]: All letters have been reviewed for content. Letters without bullets have no content at all. Creatures with !!! are improper pages.

Format still needs to be done:
- No passwords
- Owner: [Angel Dreamer]
- Keywords: Creature List Format
- Add "Back to the [Creature_List@wiki] / [The Creature List@wiki]"

I am removing the creatures from the other page now. This page is the official list, and should be moderated as such. Angel and Linn, do you want comments to be posted on T C L, C_L, or both? I can take comments off of either, depending on which page you'd rather watch for them on.... ;)

2007-02-12 [xido]: liche = lich

2007-02-12 [windowframe]: same thing, just alternate spellings.

2007-02-14 [Linn Scarlett]: Nah Liche and Lich is the same as far as I know ^_^ like magic and magick :/

2007-02-14 [xido]: but Liche has no info on it, and Lich does... I did that page for artwork a long wile back...

2007-03-04 [Lady of Lore]: Mordicant to come soon

2007-03-04 [Linn Scarlett]: hm I see we don't have winter wolves

2007-03-06 [Veltzeh]: I see someone's misspelled "phoenix"... great.

2007-03-06 [Linn Scarlett]: Does it matter XD Everybody spells it phoenix/pheonix/phoenixi/pheoniks/phoeniks
so reaaly :P

2007-03-06 [Linderel]: It matters because the correct spelling is 'phoenix'.

2007-03-06 [Linn Scarlett]: Says who? I've several books on mythic beasts all claiming the oposite of eachother...

2007-03-06 [Linderel]: Says the dictionary. I believe the dictionary. :P

2007-03-06 [Linn Scarlett]: It wasn't my mistake XD
Which reminds me *tugs xido's sleeve* why is my other favorite being, ze Erlking, not present?

2007-03-07 [xido]: PHEONIX is my bad. Sorry. Change it to Phoenix Description, since Phoenix is an Xmen-fanfic wiki about the character, Phoenix (or Jean Grey, who had a similarly misspellable last name = grey/gray).

As for she-who-tugs-on-my-arm.....  Why are you tugging at me? I've never heard of that beastie. You may add as you wish, provided Angel does not throw fits of rage and death.

To Angel, there is a calling for Sci-Fi Fiction beasties. What say you to that idea?
-will

2007-03-07 [Linderel]: 'Gray' and 'grey' are actually both correct. It's the British/US thing again.
Of course, you were probably talking about the character name, which should be one or the other. But I couldn't help myself. xD

2007-03-08 [xido]: Helpful page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters A Monster Index from Wizards.com

btw, Linn, what is an 'Erlking' anyways?

2007-03-08 [xido]: Anyone who wants to help on the dragon page is asked to comment on draco_tp, the template page for Dracology and the Draconic Clan in preparation for a future ECM session on Dragons. ;)

2007-03-09 [Linn Scarlett]: it's a nordic/germanic (i believe) folklore creature, not unlike the banshee. Only it's supposedly only one (in existance) and he , the 'elf king' as it is often translated, shows himself only to the person that is about to die. His demeanor and expression would tell how one was about to die. That's it in a nutshell.

2007-03-10 [xido]: Very cool. I like it. ;)
-will

2007-03-10 [Angel Dreamer]: On sci-fi creatures: I think as long as they're actual creatures and not, say, intelligent computer programs, then it's all good. On erlkings: I've heard of them, and no fits or rages of death will come from this direction on the addition.

2007-03-24 [Linn Scarlett]: *nod* great, because I adore them and the poem Goethe wrote about one *fiddles around and pricks a date in her agenda to make a page about em*

2007-03-28 [Linderel]: Has anyone noticed that the 'back to top'-things don't work?

2007-03-29 [windowframe]: ...Works for me. O.o

2007-03-29 [Linderel]: *blink* Now that's odd.

2007-04-06 [Linn Scarlett]: Works for me too Lind

2007-04-07 [Linderel]: Yeah, apparently it's my browser thinking that it's not a valid link and ignoring it.

2007-04-07 [xido]: Yay, SciFi! [Veltzeh] will be so happy. ;)
-will

2007-04-07 [Veltzeh]: Now the only question is about whether specific sci-fi species created by some companies are allowed... but seeing as at least "drow" and "hobbits" are here, I'd suppose so.

2007-04-08 [Veltzeh]: Also, should the name of the wikipage that leads to a descriptive page be singular or plural (should it be "cyborg" or "cyborgs")?

2007-04-08 [iippo]: Near everything else here is singular. And near everything here is also creatures from specific authors, so I'd say universe-specific creatures from sci-fi are equally fine.

2007-05-09 [Linn Scarlett]: *nod* I agree with the iip

2007-05-16 [xido]: If it is from a specific author, genre, mythos, series, rpg system, copyrighted, etc., simply post 'From ____' after it. ie, bowtruckle - From Harry Potter

We should not be afraid of the copyright, but simply reference the works it is from and keep it legal. linking is great and the list was indeed meant to be informative. It should help in all aspects of creatures.

SF species:
- cyborg
- anthropoid / android
- mecha
- alien species - also, see Sci-Fi Races Page
- Space Travellers (under Human)
- mutant
- genetically engineered organism (list subpages of specific species)
- hybrid
- superhero
- tragedies

...to start with. The SF races listed on the WFR page is open game for linking and helpful player-created material, too.

2007-05-16 [Veltzeh]: I think I'll replace that "space travellers" with "sci-fi humans" if they're only supposed to be humans...

2007-05-17 [xido]: sounds great. whatever you choose is okay with me. I am just happy to see SF come to the Creature List. It makes me happy inside.

2007-06-13 [xido]: Felldrake and Linnorm, both Dragon-related creatures are ready to be added here.

2007-06-26 [Linn Scarlett]: Should you need to dig further on the HP thing, go see the HP-lexicon site, it's awesome. Which reminds me, all the extra text does make the index look a little... messy :3

2007-07-06 [xido]: http://www.hp-lexicon.com ??? No, that doesn't work...
What if we made the extra _sub-text?

2007-07-10 [Linn Scarlett]: it's http://www.hp-lexicon.org silly XD
subtext does make it look better

2007-07-17 [xido]: Ah, I see... Ok, interesting. ;)
I think so too. I will start doing that.

2007-07-17 [xido]: Also, "space travellers" changed to Sci-Fi Humans. ;)

2007-07-23 [iippo]: Suggestion: adding the names of the creatures in different languages somewhere in the page. For example:
-Troll (English)
-Trollen (swedish)
-Peikko (Finnish)
etc...
Nothing excessive, just a mention or so?

2007-09-06 [xido]: This is great idea, iippo. We should make it happen in a formatting that would keep the integrity of the page's current layout. I would, however, like to see cool ideas like this be put in place... Then again, it's not my page.

Angel gets last call, of course.

2007-09-06 [iippo]: Well, it's a wiki, and wiki's work best as a collaborative effort :P

2007-09-06 [xido]: Truth. I suppose if she really hated it, she could always throw a fit and tear it down... Funny, I can't even IMAGINE Angel doing that... But she could if she wanted. x.op

2007-09-06 [xido]: Wait, did you mean adding that info somewhere on this page, or on each creature page? I was thinking it could go in the section 'Also: (other names), Clans, Spellings' in sub-script after the entries... Or else be given a list below it, but spaced from the left edge of the page.

2007-09-06 [iippo]: I was thinking the page itself.

2007-11-23 [Linn Scarlett]: The page itself would be a good idea *ponders* and if we all supply with our own native tongue(s) then we can compile quite an impressive list of translations

2007-12-14 [Hedda]: The pheonix and pheonixi pages are moved to phoenix and phoenixi respectively.

2007-12-26 [Linn Scarlett]: Urk, I am here, I am here *colapses completely exhausted*

2008-02-01 [xido]: You're doing good, Linn. Stick to your guns, and take care of real life. This is not top priority in your life, unless you want it to be.

With that said, I am hoping to ask a few of you to help me on a project. I want to find which of the creatures on this list are primarily player-oriented (typically humanoids, or similarly 'familiar' creature types). Along with the current WFR char Race list (which can be shifted over here on RPG-specific pages), the CL will be divided through external organization (in a MS Word 2007 document) between player and non-player races. The player-type races will go into a player's guidebook-style publication, while we will get ET permissions to work with the CL as a monster compendium.

Also, has anyone else seen Monstropedia.com ? It looked pretty informative. Perhaps we can benchmark from the successes of their own list. This one is already so unique, because it includes a lot more culture-specific beasties than most other sites (which often focus on the more 'mainstream' creatures of popular fiction).

However: Angel, the Council (now that this page has been quasi-integrated into their own methodology), and [Hedda] need to give their legal permissions before the idea can ever hit publication stage.

In 2008, xidoraven studios is going to try and institute some new contest ideas to help get some cool new artwork and content for the idea. If it goes through well enough, the WFR will have an entirely Elftown-friendly Player's, Storyteller's, and Monsters Core books to supplement players' other gaming systems.

If possible, [Torr-maat] and my studio concept will also be trying to put together a software application that will translate editions of game materials (and hopefully cross-company translations as well). These are long-term goals, so do not feel hasted. This is not imminent.

Neither the Guild nor our studio concept has the money to cover the entrance price Wizards.com set for companies to 'buy in' on the OGL content prior to Jan. 2009 at this time.

d20 is on the way.

Also, Linn: have you been Knighted?
I would like you Knighted by [Blood Raven], if possible.
-will

2008-02-01 [iippo]: It might be useful for you to think in a bit broader terms, xido. Not everyone on ET roleplays, and thus not everyone will want to use this resource for playing. Some might use it for art reference, some for writing, some for whatever other reasons. Making it "player creatures and monster creatures" won't make any sense to anyone who has never RPed, and the list would seem to be leaning a lot towards roleplayers-only. I don't think it's a good idea to alienate the non-RP people. Just something for you to think about.

2008-03-03 [xido]: We're not changing the list, iippo. I am trying to coordinate the content for which publication portion the info goes into. If the creature has four legs, low intelligence and no ability to use weapons, it sure wouldn't make a good race for our Player's Guide.

I think everyone need to stop critiquing my actions, unless you're in on the project. I am really quite tired of explaining myself to everyone who has an opinion.

I understand your concern, but nothing is changing here. I am compiling information because it is the first step in the process.

Maybe if more people tried roleplaying and spent less time criticizing me, they might have an easier time figuring out why I do things that don't make sense to them. In my opinion, it's a much better option than critiquing another person's actions every step of the way. That's called micro-management, and it's irritating to deal with when you're over-seeing a big project like this.

Thanks and best wishes,
-will

2008-03-03 [windowframe]: Xido, don't take the critique personally. And don't assume she doesn't know what she's talking about, either. She may know more than you think she does, and at the end of the day - you're both trying to do the same thing - what you think is best. You should respect that in someone else, and don't get ratty with her just because you happen to have explained something a few times already. If you want to put forward a new and radical idea then you have to be prepared to explain yourself. Repeatedly. And telling people they should try your hobby and then they'd understand you better is also a bad idea. Did you not notice that iippo is running the Champion's Tournament - a role-playing tournament. She's already into RPing. Maybe if you tried looking at it form her perspective you'd understand why she didn't agree with you.

You're just being rude now, Xido, it doesn't become you, and [iippo] didn't deserve it. She certainly wasn't rude to you. :(

2008-03-05 [iippo]: [xido], are you making a list of creatures that is solely for the use of role-players and is in Elftown just for the purpose of you gathering information for some kind of Player's Guide -publication? I thought that this wiki was something much broader back when I first got involved in 2004 (when it still was creature_list). I'm pretty sure Hedda thought so too when he got involved with the whole Creature Marathon Contest -thing, wanting these pages to be made the best in the web about the creatures.

In fact, what it looks like to me is that you took over Angel Dreamer's project and are taking it to wherever you want it to go, which is this roleplaying publication. The original creature_list seems to have nothing to do with roleplaying or WFR or anything like that, so I really don't see why your direction is the right one for the entire wiki and why you feel that you have ownership of it.

In fact I find it morally questionable that you consider making any kind of publication of a wiki that everyone can donate information to without that intent of publication being stated clearly. To me it doesn't sound very far from ripping people off, but maybe you're not explaining it to me very well; I sure hope I have misread your intent.

2008-03-05 [xido]: I am not answering this.

You say I am taking it personally.

iippo: It might be useful for you to think in a bit broader terms, xido.

She questioned the way I think. That is rude. No one knows this. [Hedda] and I are speaking right now. That's all you need to know.

Again, are either one of you in on this project? Stop harrassing me. I am trying to get things done. At my pace.

Try not bringing Angel into this. She is not here to stick up for herself.
-will

2008-03-06 [windowframe]: Stop harassing you? Asking questions is harassing you? Stop being an ass, Xido. So you're frustrated because your project is hard work; don't take it out on us. iippo wasn't attacking Angel Dreamer so she doesn't need to stick up for herself. Do you see everything as a personal assault nowadays? Yeesh. You're so sure that no one knows what's going on. Can you see everything that happens on Elftown? Stop assuming we're bloody stupid already. And actually, people can get an understanding of how you're thinking from what you're saying. Just because you don't like what you're hearing doesn't make it rude.

If there's nothing in what iippo's asking, you could simply have said "no iippo, you misunderstood me, I am not trying to rip people off". Why couldn't you? Because it's true, or because you've started taking things so personally again that it's stopping you communicating?

2008-03-06 [xido]: "No, [iippo] and [windowframe]. You both misunderstand me greatly. There is only one Owner of this page, and it is not me; it is Angel. I am a volunteer, professional, and entrepreneur. Get off my case."

2008-03-06 [Veltzeh]: [xido], if you plan to publish some of this stuff on a medium that is not like this wiki, wouldn't you need permission from everyone who contributed?

2008-03-06 [iippo]:
My question: "are you making a list of creatures that is solely for the use of role-players and is in Elftown just for the purpose of you gathering information for some kind of Player's Guide -publication?"
[xido]'s reply: "I am not answering this."

Err, no. This one you gotta answer, mate. Because if you are planning on doing one thing and the wiki is saying you're doing something else, this we call lying.

She questioned the way I think. That is rude.
No, a comment like "It might be useful for you to think in a bit broader terms" is called constructive criticism.

2008-03-07 [xido]: All talk, and no listening. Typical.

Call me out to be a liar again, [iippo]. See where that gets you.

[Veltzeh]: yes, or maybe - depending on what legal documents are involved. I have a huge job in front of me. Want to help, or start micromanaging me like the others here? My suggestion is to help, or do nothing. Those are my current choices, after all.

Anybody want me to start responding here with MY CRITICISMS, or can we all just go back to business, being people on a silly web site like real adults?

*doesn't actually care what the answers are, since it was rhetorical*
(I call this angry, pissed-off, screw-you, anti-high-horse cynicism. Feel like playing? It's a really fun game for me. I have a high score in real life.)

To answer your question (even though it is not in any way required right now):
NOTHING IS CHANGING ON THIS DAMNED PAGE. IF IT DID, THERE IS THIS WONDERFUL BUTTON CALLED 'EDIT THIS PAGE'. And if, just by chance, I had any intentions of changing it here....


Exactly how many clicks would it take to CHANGE IT BACK? I'm sure you're finger might get tired, but try not to think about it. I know there are lots of other fun comments (my apologies) - constructive criticisms - that you can use to make me - or others - out to be a fool and an ass hole. I'd hate to waste that precious time of yours...

Plus, I just figured I'd beat you to it.

Anthing else you'd like to discuss on this page?

2008-03-07 [xido]: For the record, aboleth is a D&D-publication-specific creature that is clearly a monster, and not a playable humanoid or neo-player-esque beastie. It can be found in the Monsters Manual, on D&D Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Aboleth), as well as outlined in its entirety in 'Lords of Madness', an excellent supplement for information.

A brownie, on the other hand, has many various pasts, including one in 2nd edition D&D, before Hasbro Inc. ever owned the name/rights, and is a very pleasurably suitable player-worthy beastie. It can be found in the AD&D Monster Manual, websites, and great texts on mythological creatures.

Look, productivity! Concept!

2008-03-07 [xido]: And...  YES, we STILL have pages here with little to no extra information, origins, references, or conjecture on creature-related topics ABOUNDING across the genres and media.

Ask me why the Mods at D&D Wiki don't want to come here and get involved. Dare ya. (http://www.dandwiki.com)

And I don't even pay them yet. They haven't paid me either.

Imagine that. What word in the English language - I think it begins with a 'v' - defines that concept? I do know that it's not "contract worker", "lackey", "dickwad", or "venereal disease", but my memory isn't all that great these days.

2008-03-07 [xido]: Angel:

If you ever do get time to read these wonderful words, please summon some of those demons that you encountered in the Abyss so that someone here will stop complaining and get their asses to work again. I would most appreciate that.

Thanks for hosting our wonderful fun on your awe-inspiring page. I am oh-so glad to be involved, my darling.
-william, Madraven who thinks your badges can shove it

2008-03-07 [windowframe]: You want the artists on the site to provide art for your project, and this is how you treat them? It's you who can shove it xido.

2008-03-07 [xido]: Tell me once more how this page came to be an official Council page, and how the ECM is not a by-product of the contributions of ET Members that you rely upon for the work here to get done (so you don't have to do it).... ??

In case you didn't notice, y'all better check your ethics books, because this whole shit fit started because no one wanted to admit that I already answered your questions from the get-go:
"Along with the current WFR char Race list (which can be shifted over here on RPG-specific pages), the CL will be divided through external organization (in a MS Word 2007 document) between player and non-player races. The player-type races will go into a player's guidebook-style publication, while we will get ET permissions to work with the CL as a monster compendium."

Could've avoided a whole lot of disappointment with just a little more reading.

2008-03-07 [windowframe]: So a page has to be official for me to comment on it now, just because I happen to be council? What kind of warped logic is that. And before you start with a rant about how the ECM is there so I don't have to work, have a think about who's helping in running the damn thing, and maybe consider the fact that I, and other council members also entered the contest. Holy shit, that means we contributed, right? That means we did work, right?

2008-03-07 [xido]: No, but I find it amusing that when I do it, I am over-running everything. When y'all do it, it gives you the right to push around others who are actually putting in the extra years (not moments) of their life for "your" pages.

You see, I am Elftown too.

2008-03-07 [windowframe]: We don't push people around, Xido. You just see it that way because you don't like it when you don't get your own way.
And you're not Elftown, you're a member, you're a small, tiny part, yes, but you're not Elftown.

2008-03-07 [Veltzeh]: "Along with the current WFR char Race list (which can be shifted over here on RPG-specific pages), the CL will be divided through external organization (in a MS Word 2007 document) between player and non-player races. The player-type races will go into a player's guidebook-style publication, while we will get ET permissions to work with the CL as a monster compendium."
It's very hard to figure out what exactly this means. This is how I decoded the text: If you declare some "race" playable, you'll just take its description/pictures without asking. And if you declare it as a "monster", you will ask for permission. (The player-type races will go into a player's guidebook-style publication, while we will get ET permissions to work with the CL as a monster compendium.) But what is an "ET permission"? Did you mean "permission from Elftown"? What/who would "Elftown" represent in that context? Also, the text implies that you will also make these changes to the actual list after having divided the races externally (Along with the current WFR char Race list (which can be shifted over here on RPG-specific pages), the CL will be divided through external organization (in a MS Word 2007 document) between player and non-player races.).
Now, I KNOW you apparently don't mean that by now, but your text just says something different! :/ How can I know what I should believe?

2008-03-07 [xido]: Veltzeh, I am glad that you are willing to rationalize this with me. Let me re-state my words in a way which is clear in English, the only language I speak.

You may "believe" whatever you wish at this point. I am not in the business of shifting people's beliefs. I am working on facts, the ones that we hold so dear on these informational pages.

The fact is that nothing is changing here. Let me re-state that: NOTHING is CHANGING HERE.

This "declaration" is happening on an external document, one which you nor the Council members do not need to view until it is finished and complete.

This document will divide the creatures listed here into two categories: Beasties and People-ish. Those aren't real words, so they might not translate well. I call them non-Player Races and Player Races. D&D has an excellent set of guidelines for defining what constitutes both, and I will be referencing this information on my own, without posting it to this page, on my own time, without yahoo-input from everyone, their brother, and their cat Felix.

Each creature's RPG-specific content will have its own page (as it does now) so that people like Silverfire and iippo don't have to think that I am tyrranically over-taking this page with my own best interests.

There is no information for this project which will in any way be taken without the creator's notification, and - if possible - full consent. Yep, big project. Better wish me luck. This book could be small if many people throw as big of a fit as y'all have about it.

You're a Council member, right? In fact, you all are, right? "ET permission" means the final product would pass its way in front of all of you, or whoever [Hedda] designates as the decision-makers before it went anywhere off this site.

The WFR has its own list of races that are sitting by un-changed because they are not on this one yet. If you tell me that this means that I am pushing my content onto you, then you are both correct and wrong. Do not think that there is any "implications" written in here. That would be an assumption - a not-very-informed and boisterous one - and as we all should know by now, to ASS-U-ME is quite a difficult endeavor to back up with rationality.

Let me state my goals here, so you can all stop assuming anything:
Three books (Players, Storytellers, Creatures) will be composed. They will feature information from this page, others, and many other sources - all legally endorsed and confirmed prior to publication. [Hedda] would see them first. Council would most likely review them second. We get permissions. We publish content. People are happy.
-will

2008-03-07 [windowframe]: If you'd bothered to try and listen to us at all, Xido, you'd have known we weren't accusing you of trying to take over the page. But I know you loev your paranoid fantasy about that, so I don't suppose there's much point in trying to tell you, yet again, that we weren't trying to make an ass out of you. iippo was actually asking the same question as Vel.

2008-03-08 [xido]: Still, more attitude, and an accusation against my actions and/or thoughts.

We're not getting real far here, are we?

2008-03-08 [windowframe]: Odd, I thought you were the one making the accusations about how *we* were thinking. But it's probably okay for you to do that. :) I would have asked the question, but I didn't see the point, because I honestly didn't think you'd respect me enough to answer me. Tell me otherwise, and I'll ask.

2008-03-08 [xido]: I guess you thought wrong. You might want to check the comment history before you say that one again.

Yes, it is completely okay for me to mirror the bad attitudes I see on this page. Call it stooping to a lower level, but sometimes that's the only thing that gets people like you to feel like they need the last word.

Believe what you must. I am not in the business of belief. I leave that for the churches. I am working on the facts. The fact is that you have time and again shown your true colors.

I can't wait until Angel and Hedda show up here. At least I can take a criticism from either of them, since it is of course only applicable that I get their opinions. I don't need yours, and not wanting them is a prerogitive; not a statement of paranoid delusion.

Earn my respect before you demand it. You certainly haven't made me feel like it is worth my time, but then you can't change my feelings, can you? I'm sure backing off wasn't mentioned in my first comments to you either... But I could be wrong.

2008-03-08 [windowframe]: Xido, you make no sense. Stop threatening people.

2008-03-08 [xido]: lol!

2008-03-08 [Veltzeh]: Okay, thanks. It does seem that stuff just comes to believing when we have to communicate abstract ideas through non-mathematical language because different people use words differently and in different context. It's fairly clear that all of us have misunderstood some things here because of that. It would be awesome if I said one thing and everyone would understand it just the way I did, but unfortunately language doesn't work that way. Word definitions are vague and stuff, and sentence structures make it even more complicated. I usually try my best to be clear but even the simplest language gets misunderstood sometimes!
Hmm, maybe that was enough language-nerding for this comment. Back to topic!

2008-03-08 [Linderel]: *pops in randomly* Semantics for the win! *pops back out*

2008-03-08 [Sunrose]: I agree with Vel on the misunderstanding-issue.
Maybe everyone should take 5 and a deep breath, before writing their replies. Try to have some understanding for each other, because in the heat of aggravation you might write things that were unnecessary and entirely not useful.
Of course everyone has the right to ask questions and a right to their opinion, especially if it also concerns their art.
And it's very possible that despite the amount of times things are explained, people still don't get the entire project.
This might require a lot of patience from both sides :)

2008-03-08 [xido]: Agreed on all points.

I will try to stay definitive, but when I tell someone to back off, I don't feel like repeating myself.

I still say the time we spent on this could have been more appropriately used in figuring out which creatures on this page are what, or - if we felt truly inspired - to post a little info or conjecture on their pages.

That is a much more productive activity than trying to understand a project that I did not yet open up to the public. I asked for Linn's help, and she is quite busy herself. It looks as though I may be doing it all by myself, which is fine as well. Thank the gods for motivation.

I understand the Council wanting to know what's going on here. I wish I could have a product in front of me to use as an example.... Very difficult to do when one spends more time "defending" himself from the statements of others than on working on this project.

Patience is a virtue not always understood in what I call "shallow internet facade" where people are allowed to read-in to your thoughts by the way of your words on a page. Hardly a good indicator of my judgement or thought processes.  :/
-will

2008-03-10 [Sunrose]: I understand, I think their issue is that they don't feel their questions have been answered and you feel that you have. That might cause huge aggravation for both.
Patience can also be exercised on the internet, if it is pointed out to everyone :)

It's important to note that [Hedda] has put a notice of your project before the Council, because the project concerns him, the Council and the artists involved.
It's a good thing to have several people look at your project from different angles.
All the questions you are getting now might be only 30% of the questions you will be asked later. If you are not able to answer them now in a satisfying manner, you will have bigger issues later on.

The only way the project can be evaluated, is by how you explain it. And since it concerns the art people have created, they will all be very alert and picky on your wording. Not because it is you, but because it is their art.
They don't want to agree to something to later find out they misunderstood and actually don't want it. This is very understandable from their point of view.

Your goal is not just practical, on how to create this book. Your goal should also be to create good will and convince people that this is something they want, so that it can actually happen.
It might not sound too appealing of a task, but this is also how it works in the real world: The artists you address are investors in your project. Investors don't throw around their money, just like artists don't do with their art.
So it's important to find out what they want, and what [Hedda] wants for Elftown. And see if and how you can comply to these wishes.
No matter how you look at it, you will in the end need permission from the artists. And the only way to get that is by making sure they want in on it..

My point is that all this trouble might actually be in your own benefit later down the line :)

2008-03-12 [Angel Dreamer]: Alright. I realize that I have been absent for quite some time, and I apologize to everyone for that. It's not exactly a joke that I've been eaten by school. Thank you to everyone who's been running this show while I've been away.

That said, barring [Hedda]'s overruling of this, there will be no publication of any part of the Creature List. Period. Individual artists are free to use their own artwork as they please, but this was intended as an open resource of mythological creatures and the variations on these creatures - free for anyone on Elftown (and now, apparently, the internet at large) to use. Not for publication. Nor was it ever intended for RPG; I'm glad role-players can make use of it, but it was never meant as anything more than an encyclopedia of sorts.

Also, I'm not sure if you were thinking of dividing this page itself into playable/non-playable characters as well. If you were, don't. Organization of the pages stands as-is.

2008-03-12 [xido]: Thank you for clarification, Angel. I believe that solves all problems presented here. I believe it will also give you an answer of my future plans, since the CL is no longer available to the publication in any form.

I will be approaching individual writers to help compose information on cultural monsters from around the world's mythologies, to be completed for publication uses, and the Guild will host contests for willing artists to be involved.

Since cultural creatures were the main pull for me to utilize this list to help our compilations, I see no reason why external pages could not be created and used in a Guild-specific manner.

I will not be needing any help in evaluating this list, and as I said before: it has never been my intention to modify this list beyond its intended uses as a resource (such as by adding content or a new creature). I will continue to help solely in comments and page content.

Best wishes,
-will

2008-03-13 [Hedda]: [iippo]: Why was mundagiller removed?

2008-03-13 [Hedda]: [Angel Dreamer]: Well, you can't stop writers who have submitted work here to submit it elsewhere too. But Elftown doesn't have copyright to their work, so I can neither stop nor force allowing texts to be used elsewhere. So my opinion on exactly that matter is that it's non of my business.

But if there are other ways we can help [xido] without too much effort and we get something in return, it's great. Anyone is welcome to use the stuff I currently have made and is on Elftown now, but I want free to copy digital copies then. (It's not a demand for my reference pictures, but a humble request there.).

2008-03-13 [Angel Dreamer]: I don't really have a problem with [xido] approaching people and getting them to write something up for him to use. I think my main objection is taking the information that was submitted here and making a profit from it. What I've heard of this project sounds liked a blatant disregard for everyone else who's contributed to the list.

...Why is mundagiller gone? I liked that thing, it's kinda cute...

2008-03-13 [windowframe]: [iippo] removed it because it was a creature created by her for an RP, and she was worried it would get used without her consent, I believe. Or possibly just because she got scared off this page in general, and wanted to take her content with her.

2008-04-06 [Linn Scarlett]: *drags herself back in, looking all messed up as if she's been wrestling a dragoncub* I am back again for the period coming. I am and have been very busy with work/study related projects, mostly out of the country on locations so desolate I required to be happy with a can of water, let alone internet >.>' But anyway, I am back for a bit.

On a side note, the list is turning out really good! Nice visual and ordening of the main page, especially ^_^

2008-04-06 [Linn Scarlett]: Did some woobling on various pages, amongst others the Bowtruckle/Dementor pages, 'cause ever since I've been writting my fanfic I've turned in a HP-lore geek. I blame the fact that the main character loves Magizoology for it :p

2008-04-06 [Linn Scarlett]: and am I the only one that finds it weird that Succubi and Incubi have their own page, even though they are really the same thing only then male/female? Ok, not entirely but still. And as to the extend of Vampires having their own page, why don't Werewolves? Seeing as there are more bloodsuckers than Vampires or Vampire-likes, they still get their own page, and werewolves don't :O *waves a stake and hammer around*

2008-04-06 [windowframe]: If a page is missing, create it. :) I believe there is a werewolf session already set up for the ECM - so a page for them will be created sooner or later when we run a creature contest for it. If you want to set something up now, you're more than welcome to, but just to warn you - the content will be changed after the werewolf session. :)

2008-04-07 [Linn Scarlett]: Artsie spammed me about the ECM just now ;)
No need to start a page if it is to be changed

2008-04-07 [windowframe]: Unless some poor soul comes searching for a page about before we start the session. :P If you wrote a page for it now, you could also submit it as a text entry for the ECM, so it might stay up anyway, with a few additions. It's always good to have something up at the present. :) I'd write it, but Werewolves are out of my field of expertise. :P

2008-04-07 [Linn Scarlett]: Werewolves are my pet-expertise ^_^

2008-04-07 [Aikon I]: and minotaurs, centaurs... the list goes on :P

2008-04-07 [Linn Scarlett]: Oh hush :p

2008-07-30 [Linn Scarlett]: So it's not just me? I sometimes have the feeling comments just disappeared or something. And here I was thinking I was the one losing my marbles... Eitherho, I'd love to contribute -especially since I went way out lately on the werewolves in my own story, completely doing an overkill on expending the myths and stuff- but it's excavation season and I am on the road between sites a lot. Internet is somehow not one of their priorities to have at these sites (...). I hope to make an attempt at building a page and things I am satisfied with to enter, but I fear I will go overkill and end up needing so much time that the ECM is over for years by the time I am done. I am a bit of a nerd concerning werewolves >.>' Not sure why either.

2008-07-30 [windowframe]: Elftown crashed a while ago, and comments that were a month old (from the time of the crash) were all lost. It crashed in minor ways a few times since, and a few more comments were lost, but only an hour's worth, or so.

2008-07-31 [Linn Scarlett]: Good to know it wasn't my brain farting :P

2008-07-31 [windowframe]: XD *L*

2008-07-31 [Linn Scarlett]: I've two A3 pieces featuring a werewolf (both were/are commissions) and I hope to finish them for the ECM. Might as well do a page, have to find some time though ^_^

2008-07-31 [Linn Scarlett]:

2008-09-01 [Linn Scarlett]: thanks artsie, I'll try and do my best. I am so horrid with time based things -_-'

2008-09-02 [Linn Scarlett]: I always have too much irons -_-

2008-09-03 [Linn Scarlett]: Yeah I fear I know that feeling *is filing away due stuff about her characters in stories in the huge cardbox of doom*

2008-09-03 [Linn Scarlett]: well its really one of those old metal adress card box things, but I just rebuilt it to hold character sheets :3 because i have, officially, too much characters in my story -let alone combined with my (on going) fanfics and non-fic stories-

2008-09-04 [Linn Scarlett]: True enough ^_^ I have loads of normal stuff on my desk that I use for completely different things

2008-09-05 [Linn Scarlett]: Oh for sake of randomness, I updated the centaur page because they are such adorable little critters and I was bored :)

2008-09-13 [Hedda]: I have no idea... We'll try. They should be OK to use as they can be seen as "quotes". 

2008-09-13 [Linn Scarlett]: I hope so :)

2008-11-14 [Linn Scarlett]: hmm whot with the ECM-W starting I really have no excuses left to not colour that drawing of Fenrir up in a tree, now have I Artsie? xD

2008-11-16 [Linn Scarlett]: *chuckles* like you want to see middle age, greying men of conspicuous origin half naked sitting in a tree xD

2008-11-16 [Linn Scarlett]: He, on the other hand, /is/ the Beast. In its one true form. (which is older and hairy xD)

2009-01-11 [Hedda]: That's because some damn spam-robot was attacking Elftown. I deleted its comments.

2009-01-11 [Hedda]: Unfortunately I can't delete the notification as it isn't stored which comments you have read.

2009-01-11 [Hedda]: "This" has not going on for a few days. The spam robot attacked this page and reference pictures just before 17:00 today.

Then you imagine that it has to do with anything else, but that are totally unrelated incidents.

2009-01-11 [Hedda]: If it happens again it's because more pages have been spammed or gotten comments that were deleted for another reason. Just ignore it.

2009-01-11 [Hedda]: [Artsieladie]: *sigh* You didn't get a comment notice there, but a notice that the wiki-page was updated. I accidentally edited that page when I was trying to copy it. You can see that in the page's history.

2009-03-12 [Lady of Lore]: Related to the unicorn might be the Kirin.

Anthro might be related to the were creatures such as werewolf since the creatures are sort of animal humanoid mixture.

2009-03-26 [nehirwen]: The kraken is a seabeasty too. (in that way related to the Leviathan)

2009-06-02 [pianista]: How is possible to propose a new creature? I was asking if is possible to add "Ghaele" that is a Eladrin

2009-06-25 [Linn Scarlett]: Well, if you can cook me up a 20 sentence discription on what they are, why we should add them and so on? This creature list is for existing creatures in literature or folklore.

2009-09-16 lauren: I couldn't help but notice that some of the creatures are from Dungeons and Dragons. I happen ot love that game, full of excitment, danger and action. Do you play Dungeons and Dragons?

2009-09-16 lauren: Oh yeah, if you do, I play a 18th level Duskblade. :)

2009-09-17 [Veltzeh]: I suppose some of us do. I have a ton of characters!

2009-09-19 [pianista]: yes It's a creature of dungeons and dragons... you can find the description in my house!! thank you so much!

2010-02-03 [Linn Scarlett]: Oh yes I do. Though someone recently got me into War40K -_-

2010-04-17 [windowframe]: spam comment deleted.

2010-11-18 [windowframe]: Moar spam deleted.